Talk:Vietnamese people

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Untitled[edit]

Note: This page contains material merged from the article Gin people. Please see that article's complete history here. See also Talk:Gin people. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 06:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Page clean up[edit]

The sections that does not cite any references or sources was deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.247.207 (talk) 01:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Could someone update the number of oversea vietnamese in each country? There are more than 600,000 vietnamese in Cambodia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pringels000 (talkcontribs) 15:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Ho Chi Minh[edit]

Sorry if you oppose me, but I do not think that Ho Chi Minh would be deserving of being put as an example of a Vietnamese person, even though genetically he was one. 211.30.138.38 13:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not? He's one of the most well-known Vietnamese persons around. DHN 21:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Because overseas Vietnamese get agitated staring at a communist leader. 211.30.138.38 01:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a blatant violation of NPOV. Wikipedia do not exist for the purpose of pleasing certain people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 (talk) 07:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
If you can find someone to replace his pic, be my guest. DHN 09:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your understanding. I see it's removed already. :) 211.31.58.206 02:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Why someone removed my image set? Can we ban Minhtung91 for vandalising the page?

Kinh[edit]

Does anyone know the origin of the ethnonym "Kinh", and why does it appear with the character for "capital" when used in Chinese? User:Le Anh-Huy

No idea, but you might be interested in this article about the Gin people in China from the POV of a Chinese ethnographer (translated to Vietnamese): [1]. Another article in a Vietnamese newspaper regarding the minority group: [2]. DHN 23:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Here's another "ethnography" of ethnic Vietnamese in China. There is something quite ethnocentric about this Beijing-controlled website, as Russians and Koreans are referred to by their English ethnonyms, but the Viets are just called "Jing"! http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/EthnicGroups/136919.htm Le Anh-Huy 02:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Speculated Answer: Well, I heard this and I can't quite back it up, but it means the metropolitans, Kinh/Jing though means capital can also mean metropolitan. It's meaning maybe lost throughout the years, but could reflect that the modern Vietnamese ethnic group is neither the Lac or the other ethnic groups stated in the Legend of Lac Long Quan. Rather a mixed group of "metropolitans." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)

I am preapring a genetic study to answer your questions. Manything needs to be done now. My hypothesis is that Kinh people originating from southeast Asia and influenced by migration from southern China people. (Toiyeuvietnam). I inserted some new clues from genetic studies by Chinese scholars published in some famous articles (ex. American J Hum Genet, Science..). But my change in "Vietnamese people" topic is rejected due to unconstructive conclusion. This decision that is very quickly shows that the editor did not read these studies. It is not good way.

I don't know, but it is important to bear in mind that Việt (Yùe in modern Chinese, presumably Yuèt in ancient Chinese) means nothing other than "southern barbarian", i.e. non-Chinese south of the Yangzi river. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 (talk) 20:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Kinh is a relatively late term used by the Vietnamese to distinguish themselves from the minorities in the mountains, as the Vietnamese are people originated from the capital or the metropolitan areas and have a culture that is quite different from the surrounding minorities due to Sinization. Normally, Vietnamese refer to themselves as "người Việt" (Viet people) but when they speak to the minorities in mountains they would refer to themselves as "người Kinh" (people of the metropolitan). Only when they speak to the Hoa (Chinese) minority, the Khmer minority, and the Cham minority, would they still refer to themselves "người Việt" (Viet people). Hope this helps. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 22:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It is true that "Kinh" means capital, which word is borrowed from Chinese. Kinh meaning "of the capital" is plausible but I think unlikely. It seems more likely to me that Kinh is the endonym of the people, while Nam Viet is the Chinese exonym. Nam Viet does indeed mean "southern barbarian", "barbarian" in this context specifically meaning "settled non-Han peoples south of the Yangtze River". Most of these people (except the Kinh of course) are now completely Sinified and identify as Han. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.71.129.233 (talk) 06:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Vietnamese emigration after the Vietnam War[edit]

Large scale emigration did not occur immediately after the Vietnam War, despite the imagery of boat people fleeing on American helicopters and aircraft carriers. It was later around 1978 onwards did Chinese-Vietnamese flee in greater numbers, when their economic interests in the south were threatened by nationalisation.

The majority of boat people were Vietnamese, not Chinese. DHN 05:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, copious Hoa escaped with the Viet because of the Communists' harrasment.

Most of the Hoa are indeed discriminated by those so call pure Vietnamese; they call the Chinese ba -tau ( three boat people, funny they were boat people refugee too) even from the Viet language radio station in the West countries> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we should quickly conclude that the word "Tàu" for Chinese in Vietnamese language means boat. Have you ever thought that they could be just homophones? We call China "nước Tàu." How would you translate that? The country of boats? Sunnyrain90 (talk) 22:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
"ba-tau" is a Southern Vietnamese slang, a (slightly) derogatory term which means ethnic Chinese people living in Vietnam, and has nothing to do with boat-people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 (talk) 07:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Migration to the south after the Geneva Accords 1954[edit]

This page said that there were 2 million northern Vietnamese who migrated south after 1954. The following page, however, states that there were around 1 million people migrating from the North to the South during two years after the Geneva Accords: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1954)

In fact, the number are under 1 million. I have changed the information in this page accordingly.

Merge from Gin people[edit]

I don't see the purpose of having a separate article about the Gin, as if they were a different ethnic group. Hypothetically, it would be interesting to have an article about specifically about ethnic Vietnamese people in China, but we don't have anything like enough material for that yet. And anyway, "Gin" is just a different spelling of "Kinh", which is a synonym for "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Jing" is simply the Chinese pronunciation of that word. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Should Hoa merge with Chinese? 203.218.71.17 17:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
No, Hoa live in Vietnam. Likewise, Gin live in China.

There are large population Viet-Hoa in Western countries and successfully in business too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 (talk) 20:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Merger[edit]

Technically, merging Gin people with Vietnamese people would be like merging African-American with Black people. So we should do the same with that article.1028 00:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, no, if we make a mistake on this article, we certainly should not copy the same mistake on some other article to make up for it. More to the point, there are at least two important differences between this situation and the Black (people)-African American situation. First, the word "Gin" does not mean "Vietnamese Chinese people"; it just means "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Vietnamese Chinese would be something like 京族中国人 (Jingzu Zhongguoren—I don't know how to say it in Vietnamese). Second, there is already a well-written article about African-Americans, whereas there is not much of an article at Gin people. Furthermore, African-Americans have a culture distinct from people in African (they generally speak different languages, etc.), and I'm not sure that the Chinese Gins are that different from the Vietnamese Kinh. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I think they're different enough from other Vietnamese to have their own article. Perhaps rename the Gin people page to Gin people of China? DHN 01:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That would be fine if we had a significant article about them. I've been one of the editors of Korean Chinese. However, in fact, we have about one short paragraph to say about the Gins of China, so I don't think that warrants a separate article as it stands. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Seperate section for Myths and Facts[edit]

According to legend, the first Vietnamese descended from the dragon lord Lạc Long Quân and a heavenly spirit Âu Cơ. They marrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_peopleied and had one hundred eggs, from which hatched one hundred children. Their eldest son Hùng Vương ruled as the first Vietnamese king. The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River delta and mixed with the indigenous population.

In 258 BC, An Dương Vương founded the kingdom of Âu Lạc in what is now northern Vietnam. In 208 BC, Chao Tuo (known as Triệu Đà in Vietnamese), a former Qin Dynasty general from China, allied with the leaders of the Yue peoples in modern-day Guangdong and declared himself King of Southern Yue. He defeated An Dương Vương and then combined Âu Lạc with territories in southern China and named his kingdom Nam Việt, or Southern Yue (南越). (Nam means south). Việt is cognate to yuet 越, which is the pronunciation of Yue in ancient Chinese and some modern southern Chinese dialects. The term was used for various peoples in the region south of China, including the regions of northern Vietnam.

Do you think we should add a new section for facts and myth, althought the origins of vietnamese are shrouded in gray clouds, their language and pre-han culture does provide and in site. I notice that vietnamese language belongs in the Mon-Khmer languages, and many vietnamese customs are suprisingly simmiliar to those of other mon-khmers, such as chewing bewtel nuts and blackening teeths. Even thought the vietnames today are wholly resemble chinese, the muongs whom claim closely related to the vietnamese people resemble khmer and other mon-khmer people, do you think they are related? They share simmilarities like the tendency to be around rivers. And for the Bai Yue part, doesn't Bai Yue include hundreds of groups of people? And if the Kinh adopted an MK language, that would be kind of strange seeing as Kinhs were basically in the influence of those who spoke Sino-tibetan and most MK speakers were hill tribes? --user:leaki
They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Thats what I mention, I basically said that its quite ludacris to say vietnamese were originally not mon-khmer, but I'm saying should we add a diffrent section on factual origins and include information on possible relations to other mon-khmer. --leaki
That's probably a good idea, if you can find some sources on that. DHN 20:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
For the last several decades, they've been using the term Viet-Muong as exclusive to the Viets and the Muong people, to the exclusion of the so-called Mon Khmer. But the linguist Maspero in 1912 and again in 1952 even suggested the Viets (and by extension, the Muongs) are not Mon-Khmer, but rather a branch of the Thai/Dai peoples, in itself a branch of the Sino-Tibetan family. Read this article:

http://www.vny2k.com/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese5.htm

That article have its flaws, it stated that korean was influence by chinese but did not gain tones is wrong, evident by its hangul-based writing system, korean once had tones. As for Japanese tones, around a good 30% percent is accented. Dai is no longer considered sino-tibetan.

I agree that we should clearly split myth and historical facts. Tridungvo 15:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Response to Leaki[edit]

Uhh, regardless of those elements you listed that are practiced amongst Vietnamese (betel nut chewing, lacquering of teeth), they’re not exclusive to Mon-Khmer speaking people but also practiced by Tai-Kadai (among others) people.

No matter where Vietnamese is classified language-wise, that does not necessarily prove that they’re close genetically to a specific group in that language family. Language and genetics are not the same thing - and I know now you’re gonna say that the only other possibility is that Vietnamese adopted Mon-Khmer language, but that’s not what I’m saying either! In any case, even though Vietnamese is language wise Mon-Khmer, it’s also obvious that Vietnamese shares 10 percent basic vocabulary with Tai-Kadai languages and similar grammar, not to mention pre-sinitic influenced Vietnamese also used stilt houses like Tai-Kadai people, among other examples. Vietnamese are most likely a mixture of mon-khmer and tai-kadai peoples, then you have to factor in the 1,000 year Chinese annexation/domination (in which massive immigration of Chinese is ruled out by scholars, but there is proof of some immigrations of Chinese throughout [read “The Birth of Vietnam” by Keith Taylor]). Even language and mixing aside, Vietnamese people know their history and origins and know for a fact that the cradle of Vietnamese civilization is based in North Vietnam. People are affected not just by genetics but also by environment, North Vietnam is strikingly different from many other areas in Southeast Asia in climate, with its four seasons and it actually gets cold! Making a claim for possibility of relation because of language at one point is ok, but you have to factor in a billion other factors as well.

By the way, an interesting tidbit=Japanese people - being a mix of yayoi and Jomon, also practice what is often deemed as indigenous southeast asian practices: including practice of animism and dyeing teeth black. Mojojojoinhawaii 04:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

__[edit]

I must say that although the Vietnamese resemble the southern Chinese in cultural traditions, habits, and finally in their physical typology, i find the Southern Chinese often even more southeast Asian then the Vietnamese themselves in several ways. This may be some kind of far-fetched speculation, but I suspect the Vietnamese (in least in some of their gene pools) have much more "northern" origins. Perhaps the Mongols or others had some affect centuries ago? My own family is of Vietnamese origin, and many of my relatives have a very Central Asian, Japanese, and even Turkic look, and so they look a bit different from most of their other brethren, not to mention other southeast Asians. Until several years ago, I always thought nothing of this, and thought myself quite an "average" Asian-Canadian, until my late teen years when other Asians always had no idea where I was from, not to mention non-Asians. I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides, but people always think I look Mongolian, Japanese or Turkic; and finally, recently I have met other people of Vietnamese origin who look just like myself, and not like the majority or Vietnamese around me. ie. some Vietnamese guys (esp. in my family) have much more facial or body hair than most others, yet are entirely Vietnamese).

is their any historical evidence or research of Vietnamese having Altaic or otherwise "non-native" (ie. to the south China-Indochina basin) origins in their gene pool? This might have drastically affected the actual origins of the Vietnamese people. Le Anh-Huy 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually the so call pure Vietnamese ware mostly from the south ( mixes with Khmer ( Cambodian) !

  That is a reasonable speculation. Since it is noticeable that Vietnamese people do not have one "homogenous" feature.      
 "Actually the so call pure Vietnamese ware mostly from the south ( mixes with Khmer ( Cambodian) !"                       ↑                   

- VERY DEROGATORY DEMEANOR COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO 'TRIES' TO WRITE UNBIASEDLY BUT ADD MIXTURES OF HATE UNLINING THEIR STATEMENTS.


MUST LIKE TALKING DOWN ABOUT OTHERS, WHOM DOES NOT SPROUT FROM YOUR GENE POOL? READ THISSS UP!! NO ONE PICK WHICH FAMILY THEY COME FROM. OR IF THEY GENETICALLY SHLD HAVE CURLY HAIR OR STRAIGHT. IT'S LAME THINKING & DESTRUCTIVE vs CONSTRUCTIVE. THINK WITH YOUR GOD GIVEN BRAIN! PARTICULARLY, WHEN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SAYS.. WE ALL COME FROM AFRICA IN THE END, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. ALL SKINS & ALL TONES, EVERY RACE, EVERY COLOR. GROW UP KIDDO! LEAVE THE WAR IN THE PAST & STEP INTO THE 21ST CENTURY! http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/03/modern-humans-wandered-out-of-africa-via-arabia/

CONTINUITY OF RACIAL HATE IS REDUNDANT BECAUSE SOMEONE DESIRES TO THREAD ON ANOTHER IN ORDER TO FEEL A SENSE OF SUPERIOR. (SUPERIORITY COMPLEX - SEE A PSYCHOLOGIST!) YOUR INTERNAL DEWELLINGS IS PRESENTED AS "INSECURE" TO A PROFESSIONAL EYE. RACE SHLDN'T ELEVATE UR MENTAL SMALL STATURE. CHARACTER SHOULD!

UR SUBLIMINALLY RACIAL PROFILING & TARGETING CAMBODIANS, AS IF THEY ARE TO BLAME FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS! SO YOU UNDERSTAND, SOUTH VIETNAM WAS ALL KAMBOJA/CAMBODIA BECAUSE OF A MARRIAGE IN ATTEMPT TO UNITE THE PEOPLE AS ONE. ONCE A SHARED PROVENCE. SO DON'T BE SURPRISED, IF YOU CARRY CAMBODIAN GENES! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.71.109 (talk) 02:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

TOPIC OF GENES IS GREAT, YOUR MATERNAL MITCHRONDRIAL DNA OR PATERNAL LINEAGE, WONDERFUL! KEEP TALKING!



IT'S SO DISGUSTING & DISTURBING, HOW YOU ADDRESS THE TOPIC & TARGET CAMBODIANS. APPRECIATE DIFFERENCES IN OTHER CULTURES & THEIR CONTRIBUTES. REMOVE BORDERS FROM UR BRAIN! AS MAN & WOMAN DON'T THINK ALIKE BUT COMPLIMENT ANOTHER, AS SO ANY CULTURES, CREEDS, BREEDS AND SKINS. GROW UP!

INCASE YOU WERE THINKING: I'M AN ARYO-TURCO MONGOL. HUMAN BY RACE.


In human genetics there is a term used called 'The Milkman Effect'. You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo. The same can be said of some Filipinos. Many Chinese from Macau have very obvious Portuguese traits for the same reason. 13 Sep 06.
You obviously do not know many Southern Chinese. Not even a typical Southern Chinese resemble a typical Vietnamese, although they are from the same geographic area. They are not typologically nor morphologically alike, and could be easily distinguished. Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.


Some Vietnamese customs that are more Southeast Asian than Chinese: fish sauce, betel chewing, teeth blackening, origin myths, fairy tales. The Fourth Chinese domination of Vietnam did much to Sinicize the country in 20 short years. DHN 08:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

wrong!!! you do not know know about China. Korean people and Hai nan people (southern island of China ) eat fish sauce too!


Quoted from Talk:Vietnamese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

a.) DHN responding to user:leaki, on the origin of the Vietnamese people: They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

b.) DHN responding to Le Anh-Huy's message of 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC), despite Le Anh-Huy clearly stating "I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides": ...You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo... 13 Sep 06.

c.) DHN's "scientific" claim of genetic make-up for Vietnamese of Chinese origin: Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.


Sirs,

Who is this DHN? I found his/her comments very disturbing. Bad English to start with (Cf. Quote a.) above). What rights to make such huge & offending statements on the world stage? They are far from accurate, to say the very least.

Yours sincerely, T.Vd./

DHN is the idiot who originally wrote this article. DHN 01:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I speculate that Vietnamese are mixture of the north (chinese) with the indigenous populations through out time, leaving much of the population looking somewhere on the spectrum of looking very east asian to looking very austronesasian. After all, there were many Chinese who moved down to Vietnam during the successive dynasties, who though were 100% Han in genetics identified with Vietnam as it was their home province, it might also make sense that chinese military men, stationed south without their women, found indigenous partners, leaving people of highly mixed sino-vietnamese stock. likewise, there are other probably those that live outside the cities, where the Hans used to congregate in ancient times, having less exposure to han genes also leaving us with those who look more "indigenous." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)

Should Hoa = Chinese? Gin people and Vietnamese should be separeated![edit]

Yes, "Hoa" in Vietnamese language means not only the ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, but also the ethnic Chinese living in other countries, for example in the USA, in France, in Thailand, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Cambodia, etc. Although less often, but this word is also used to refer to the Chinese living in China. Tryst Nguyen

Cosmonaut, not Astronaut![edit]

Instead of Eugene Trinh, why not have a picture of Pham Tuan? At least, he was the first Vietnamese cosmonaut, as well as the first Asian in space. Some Vietnamese Americans are so unwilling to recognize any progress that goes on "back home", preferring to only focus on personal achievements of Vietnamese-Americans who, are primarily doing the United States of America a favour, not Vietnam. Besides, Pham Tuan looks better, and will give the "ethnic photos" better exposure to Viets. Le Anh-Huy 05:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to using these pics, but they keep getting deleted. I originally used Ho Chi Minh, the girl, Phan Van Khai, and Tran Duc Luong, based solely on how well-known they are (plus the girl for balance). I have serious doubts as to whether Eugene Trinh is really Vietnamese. I really don't care too much whether they bring "pride" or "shame" to the people they represent. (Being chosen by the Soviets to show off how much better their socialist system are compared to the capitalist system isn't much to be proud of either) DHN 06:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


Looking happy, confident and cultured, not to mention beautiful and enviable (And no makeup, very genuine), the girl in her Ao Dai (Ow Yai), the cultural symbol of Vietnam: Most beautiful image of Vietnam.
Astronaut or Cosmonaut?: The 1st Asian in space was a Vietnamese citizen in space (not an American citizen). T.Vd./

Exactly! Le Anh-Huy 22:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

But, there are speculations that that cosmonaut did nothing but "ride along". :D I think it's safer to use Eugene Trinh. He is Vietnamese, definitely. (Yes, us overseas Vietnamese are being arrogant, but we have the right to, don't we?) 220.239.231.118 11:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

related to southern chinese[edit]

i changed 'possibly related to southern chinese' to related to southern chinese. genetics study have shown that the vietnamese kinh are indeed closely related to them. we are genetically closer to them than the other peoples of southeast asia such as the thais, though we are somewhat closely related to the people of laos. the computer dictionary microsoft bookshelf 2000, also states that we are related to the southern chinese.

Possibly? Anyway, this is off-topic, but Vietnamese is not Chinese, right? People I know keep on saying that the Vietnamese people were from China (geographically originating from a part of today's China, yes, but I mean CHINA as in CHINA), which is stupid, in my opinion. 220.239.231.118 11:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


No. Vietnamese and Han Chinese are distinct ethnic groups. Vietnamese descended from minority ethnic groups in China, not Han Chinese. It's like Japanese vs Chinese. Academics suggest that modern Japanese people descended from Yayoi people originally from China, but yayoi were distinct from Han Chinese as well. Moreover, they mixed with Jomon people to form modern-day Japanese ethnicity. Same case with Vietnamese and Chinese.

From: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=21714

Quote: the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not. 116.15.11.188 (talk) 13:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Also see: Yue (state), King Gou Jian of Yue[edit]

What is the reason for including "Yue (state)" and "King Gou Jian of Yue" under "Also see"? Both these "Yue" refer to what is now Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces in China and not are related to Vietnam. LDHan 11:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This user has been pushing this hogwash in the Chinese and Vietnamese Wikipedias. According to him, the Vietnamese state was a successor to the State of Yue and "King Gou Jian of Yue" was their ancestor. He's been banned in the Vietnamese Wikipedia but keeps coming back. He keeps writing abusive messages in Chinese (which thankfully few in the Vietnamese Wikipedia can understand). DHN 15:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh I see, thanks. LDHan 16:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox[edit]

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo[edit]

What's this? Ho Chi Minh got removed whereas some strange guy with American flag on one arm and another in the background is put on as an example of a Vietnamese? This is serious POV, especially when this is an article about Vietnamese in general, not Vietnamese American. I will remove it if no one can give me a satisfying explanation.Hawkie 14:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Have to agree with you. LDHan 14:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed it for its disgusting impression, and I'm thinking of some other image to fill in its place. There're still many Vietnamese great names which are also well-known outside Vietnam. Or maybe we can find an image of male Vietnamese since I can see an image of female Vietnamese in traditional dress already.Hawkie 15:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are there so many Chinese references in this article?[edit]

First, there is no need to go into detail about Vietnamese people in specific a country, China in this case. There is no discussion of Vietnamese people in Thailand or South Korea and what they are labeled there because it is not needed. The Diaspora section covers all that is needed about Vietnamese people living abroad. Besides there are other Wikipedia articles that discuss Vietnamese people living outside of Vietnam or in a specific country (Vietnamese Canadians, Vietnamese Australians, etc). Remember this article is about the Kinh ethnic group not about Vietnamese living abroad.

 I would rather said the so call really vietnemanse are from Champa kingdom! 

Vietnamese spelling were invented from the French! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 (talk) 21:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Second, why are so many translations of Vietnamese words to their Mandarin equivalent? Remember this is a Vietnamese article not a Chinese one. Do you see Vietnamese translations of Chinese names and places in Chinese articles? The answer is no because Vietnamese translations are unnecessary in Chinese articles just like Chinese translations in Vietnamese ones.

I believe this article should be edited to omit all the Chinese references, which are unnecessary to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 (talk) 15:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

If nobody responses in a week I will go ahead make the edits myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 (talk) 15:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, had you actually checked and been able to read Chinese, you would know that many Chinese pages about anything Vietnamese will also feature Vietnamese pronunciations and spellings, apart from Putonghua spellings. Le Anh-Huy 05:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
As you stated, those Chinese pages dealing with Vietnamese issues have Vietnamese pronunciations and spellings because it is apt. Translating Vietnamese names, places, etc. into Chinese on a Vietnamese page is not appropriate.WanderDuck (talk) 00:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Vietnamese was originally written in Chinese, so the Chinese characters are appropriate for historical terms. DHN 15:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese may have been originally written in Chinese, but it is not really pervalent in today's time. Hardly any Vietnamese are taught to read or write in Chinese script so it is pretty much useless if they can't understand it. Actually the Vietnamese sound are closely to Camtonese. Vietnamese spelling was invented by the French not Vietnamese them self!

So is it okay to delete this passage? "In the People's Republic of China, they are among the recognized minority groups based especially in or around Guangxi Province and are known in Mandarin Chinese through their derivative name Jing/Gin (京) or "Jingzu"/"Ginzu" (京族)." As I have stated this article should concentrate about the Kinh ethnic group. There is no need to go to mention what Vietnamese are labeled outside of their country. There is no metion of what Vietnamese are called in other countries like Laos or Thailand because it is unnecessary just like this passage. It more appropriate in the "Vietnamese people in China" article.

I don't see a reason to delete it. It appropriately shows that there are Vietnamese people outside of Vietnam. In Laos or Thailand I'm not sure if they're an officially recognized ethnic group, but they are in China. The same thing about the Chinese characters can be said of the Vietnamese text in this article, since English speakers (the primary audience of this article) won't be able to read it either. DHN 15:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
There's a specific reason only the Jing (ethnic Vietnamese in China) are mentioned in this article as opposed to ethnic Vietnamese enclaves elsewhere. I think the article makes reference specifically to the Vietnamese who have been living in the southern areas of China for centuries, therefore they are a not only an established but historical ethnic group in those southernmost regions of China. If you look at Vietnamese origin theories, one states that Vietnamese originate mainly from Northern Vietnam but also partially from Southern China - one common misconception is that the current Jing (ethnic Vietnamese) living in some southernmost areas of China are indigenous when they are NOT - they just immigrated to those areas centuries ago, however it is notable because some majorly accepted theories are that one of the places of origin of Vietnamese people are in certain southernmost parts of China and that there is a group of Vietnamese living there now (the Jing who migrated there centuries ago).165.196.104.76 19:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe there is a reason to delete the disputed passage, as I mentioned earlier it is not appropriate as this is a Vietnamese ethnic article not Vietnamese in China article. It starts out about discussing about Kinh then all of a sudden it talks about what Vietnamese people are called in China . . . why? How does that make scene? And Vietnamese people are a recognized ethnic group in Thailand, Germany, Norway, etc. but it is not mentioned here because it is not needed, same with China. And if it does get mentioned it should be brief in the diaspora section or in another Wikipedia article.
“The same thing about the Chinese characters can be said of the Vietnamese text in this article, since English speakers (the primary audience of this article) won't be able to read it either. DHN 15:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)” -- As I stated earlier, this article is a Vietnamese article in an English language site so Vietnamese script is necessary while the Mandarin script are out of place and unnecessary. By using your argument, it be okay to use Vietnamese script in a Chinese article since the English speaking audience is unable to understand it just like the Chinese script.
It would have been appropriate if the Chinese language was written with Vietnamese script sometime in the past. DHN 16:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
And yet Chinese script is no longer taught to Vietnamese in today's time, making the Chinese script pretty much useless. Since you argue that Chinese script should remain because it was used in the past, than would it be right to start using Chinese script in Korean and Japanese articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 (talk) 16:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Yet again, an erroneous assumption. Had you even been able to read Chinese text, you would know that many Korean and Japanese pages do give original Chinese text as a source of context for certain topics or words. Please refrain from discussion if you do not even know what you are talking about...and have the decency to sign in if you think you are up to editing. I propose that this page should bar those who do not sign in from "editing". Le Anh-Huy 05:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I may not know much on this topic but I do know Korean and Japanese script use some loan characters from Chinese script and perhaps that is why there is Chinese script on Japanese and Korean pages. As you pointed out the use of Chinese script in Japanese and Korean pages are limited, being reserved for "certain topics or words" as opposed to how this page use to be with Chinese equivalents for all Vietnamese names, places, etc. However this is all made irrelevant since Vietnamese script is based on Latin script.WanderDuck (talk) 00:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I finally gotten a username, I am the same person who started this discussion. All right if nobody responses by November 14, 2007 I'm going to edit the page. I thoroughly proven my point on this subject matter and if you want to make your own edits you have to discuss it first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WanderDuck (talk • contribs) 17:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be a better idea to relegate the discussion of the Vietnamese in China to the body instead of mentioning it in the head or removing it altogether. DHN 17:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I think its should be removed, as Tryst Nguyen pointed out earlier in his own discussion to whom nobody replied, the Chinese in Vietnam are called Hoa and there has been Hoa communities for centuries in Vietnam. Its not stated in the Han article because that deals with the Han ethnic group not Hans living aboard.- Wanderduck


Because today's vietnam, was until quite recently a part of the Chinese Empire, where it was known as the Province of Annam, as were the other two SE countries of Laos and Cambodia. Other territories that were once a part of the Chinese Empire include the whole of the Korean peninsular as well as Outer Mongolia and Tuva. 217.42.59.59 (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

This article should be expanded[edit]

Other subselections this article should include is culture, food, attire, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.22.23 (talk) 15:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to make those additions. DHN 20:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Genetic Origin of the Vietnamese People[edit]

i am requesting the admin to remove this article from the vietnamese origin's section

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118967451/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

where in the article did it mention hakka, southern chinese, singapore chinese are classsifed with vietnamese? there's no basis and truth in it

please be more strctly before you approve ridiclous infromation like that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX (talkcontribs) 12:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


Vietnamese have no genetic relation to Han Chinese. They are related only to the minority ethnic groups in Southern China.

Vietnamese and Han Chinese are distinct ethnic groups. Vietnamese descended from minority ethnic groups in China, not Han Chinese. It's like Japanese vs Chinese. Academics suggest that modern Japanese people descended from Yayoi people originally from China, but yayoi were distinct from Han Chinese as well. Moreover, they mixed with Jomon people to form modern-day Japanese ethnicity. Same case with Vietnamese and Chinese.

From: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=21714

Quote: the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not.116.15.11.188 (talk) 13:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Linerqi, please substantiate your claims with scientific findings or authoritative sources, instead of vague terms like "modernly accepted" opinions (which may be your one-sided view for all we know.)116.15.11.188 (talk) 13:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


I think a section on the genetic origin of the Vietnamese people should be added. It is modernly accepted among geneticist that the Vietnamese people have a dual genetic origin from the Chinese and the Thai, with certain Vietnamese more closely related to the Chinese and others more closely related to the Thai.

For example here: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1046/j.1365-2370.1999.00184.x?cookieSet=1

I think this section is important because while geographic, linguistic and cultural characteristics can be masked and changed depending on how and where a person is raised up, nobody can hide from their genetic code as it will always pinpoint exactly who they are, and where they come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Linerqi (talk • contribs) 05:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Also to add, Vietnamese people are genetically grouped with Miao, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyi and Thais, implying that they are closely related.

For example here: http://www.wufi.org.tw/taiwan/lml2e.jpg


you must be kidding me, thats a outdated DNA map from 1972, i mean 1972? are you ok? basing on ychromosome and ydna, you guys are totally different

why are you vietnamese so desperate to relate to chinese? map like these are circulated everywhere on the interent, what studies is this map based on? will the admin at least try to understand what these non-source studies are based on first before you approved it in the offical article?

please admin remove the false information without eveidence for back up

i can easily find DNA maps like that with different results [IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/2e6hspj.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/eqxmpz.jpg[/IMG]

i think vietnamese are pretty desperate....and have no shame...im sure you ancestor is very upset not if they know theres an offspring liek you —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX (talkcontribs) 13:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I think I would rather not be associate in any remote way possible to the like of you. Just thinking about me and you may have one chance in six billion share one similar chromosome make me want to puke. Truly, if I share the same gene pool as you I would rather kill myself and do the world a favor. I am sure that your ancestors are ashamed of having one such delusional offspring as you. Please, don't procreate. If your children are so unfortunate as to be born by the like of you, please, don't teach them anything. I pity them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 (talk) 08:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Linerqi (talk) 05:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"Bashi Islam" in the religions box[edit]

What is this? Is there a Vietnamese term? I can find absolutely no sources about this at all: Find sources: "Bashi Islam" – books · scholar · JSTOR · free images. cab (talk) 03:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It should be called "Bani" Islam, a form of Islam that was syncretized into Malay culture...but the internationalists among the Cham and Malay Muslim community are trying to get rid of it, for a more puritan form of Islam. Le Anh-Huy (talk) 11:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Better ask User:Le Anh-Huy, since he probably added it. If he doesn't provide any information, then I say we delete

it. DHN (talk) 03:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

_____________________________________________

For more information go to these sites.

http://www.chamstudies.com/members/agnesdefeo(transgressionsdelislam).pdf

Video on Cham Bani in Vietnamese with French translations and comments.

http://bangsacham.com/Videos.html

sorry but what is DNA map based on? dont use the outdated study those are only based on blood types which is a totally outdated method , you should study the YDNA and MTDNA of both groups all southern chinese fatherline(YDNA) are closely related to northen while vientmaes are not even the vietnmase MTDA has nothing in common with southern chinese blood type can easily affect by the tempature and climate south chinese and south east asian live in similar climate which the study tend to show they are related but YDNA and MTDNA has already refulted this claim —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX (talkcontribs) 12:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Takima (talk) 13:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Redirection[edit]

Why does the entry 'Viet' redirect to this article? The Vietnamese ethnicity is part of a much larger grouping of Viet peoples (just as the Turkish ethnic group is part of a much larger grouping of Turkic peoples). A disambiguation page needs to be provided to address this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.206 (talk) 02:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you name another "Viet" ethnic group? Note "Viet" is only used in Vietnamese to refer to the Vietnamese people. If you're thinking of Yue peoples, they're called something else. DHN (talk) 21:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the idea that 'Viet' only refers to the Vietnamese people is a misnormer (and possibly racist too). Cantonese, Hokkien and many other ethnic groups that originate in South East Asia are also Viet peoples. It must also be noted that the ancestors of ALL these peoples were NOT related to the Han people in any way.

By the way, what is this 'something else' called? Is it a derogatory term that just promotes a 'us and them' attitude? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.150.242 (talk) 23:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

If a Cantonese person is mistakenly called a vietnamese, he/she would be most offended. The vietnamese are nick-named the dog-people or simply dogs, and are lowly regarded as a people because they are associated with crimes. Example of this can be found in the UK where vietnamese people are cannabis producers. So although the term viet/Yue may be related it is not advisable to call a Chinese Yue as a viet. 217.42.59.59 (talk) 02:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Quite a racist in you eh? I suggest this person deserve to be banned forever from Wiki, and the internet if possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 (talk) 08:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
The Yue peoples are Baiyue or Bach Viet. The only common thing about them is that they're called Yue by the Han. DHN (talk) 00:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If 'Viet' really is used exclusively in the Vietnamese language to refer to ethnic Vietnamese, then I regret to say that I find such usage extremely offensive. As far as I am aware, 'Viet' as used in the English language refers to no only ethnic Vietnamese but also many other non-Vietnamese 'Viet' peoples (such as the Cantonese peoples). The bottomline: a disambiguation page needs to be provided to distinguish between the various meanings that 'Viet' might be construed to be. As the page stands, if one were looking for information on the various Viet peoples, they would be sent straight to this page without any opportunity to go to the correct article beforehand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.148.100 (talk) 01:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the Cantonese call themselves Viet. They'd call themselves Yuet or something similar. DHN (talk) 01:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The fact that most, if not all, Cantonese peoples do not call themselves 'Viet' is of no consequence. The same applies for all other non-Vietnamese Viet peoples. The issue here is recognising the fact that the word 'Viet', as applied in the English language, ordinarily does NOT mean Vietnamese. Rather the Vietnamese people are just one example of a Viet ethnic group. So we really do need a disambiguation page for 'Viet'.

PS: It is clear that an 'us and them' attitude between the Vietnamese and other Viet peoples is well and truely alive here. It would appear that many people here do not really know much about history or are seeking to promote biased views. 122.105.148.100 (talk) 03:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that Việt needs to be a disambiguation page in the Vietnamese Wikipedia, which it is, but not in the English Wikipedia. In English, the term is clearly derived from Vietnamese and is only used to refer to the Vietnamese in English and need not be disambiguated. Here's an analogy for you: Japanese yen, South Korean won, and Chinese yuan are all derived from the same character, but when you speak of "yen", "won", and "yuan", you're implicitly referring to different things, and they don't need disambiguation. The term "Yue", on the other hand, would be the appropriate place to talk about the different groups. DHN (talk) 05:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
So is there a reliable source that states that 'Viet', as used in the English language, refers to the Vietnamese people only? Some English language history books seem to use 'Viet' in a much broader sense. Furthermore, I have never seen any history book about Vietnam that refers to the ancient state of Nam Viet (which contained many non-Vietnamese Viet peoples as well as the 'native' Vietnamese people) as 'Nanyue'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.58 (talk) 10:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The redirect in question has been converted into a disambiguation page. Hopefully, this will reduce confusion. David873 (talk) 08:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Cantonese people = Vietnamese?!! That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! If you come to Asia, all Cantonese/Hakka/Hoklo people think of themselves as Han Chinese, or sub-groups of Han Chinese (what we call 籍贯). Each sub-groups has their distinct regional accents and practices, but we are all descended from Han Chinese people in the Yangtze basin.

Plese, Vietnamese people, do not make unsubstantiated claims and link yourself to us. Korea tried to steal our culture by registering it, but they failed. Please have more self-respect. Vietnamese people already have a bad reputation within Chinese communities, because some people make up lies like that. Please stop it! 220.255.37.161 (talk) 09:21, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

First, Vietnamese are proud Vietnamese people, period. We neither want or care to associate ourselves with other, especially the Chinese people. All those attempted to do so are not, in any sense or any way, Vietnamese, that I can assure you. A thousand years of Chinese domination is enough, thank you very much. We fought with blood and bone to NOT be associated with the Chinese. Try to read history please. We can stand on our own. Stop with the delusion.

Second, we are genetically Vietnamese. Nothing more, nothing less. You people who are not even Vietnamese people have no business talking about genetic composition of the Vietnamese people. Unless you have concrete evident to the contrary (i.e. two gene map on your hand with point by point comparison between Vietnamese people and ____ people (fill in the blank)), please do yourself a favor and be quiet. Wikipedia is not a faith based institution, and your belief means nada here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 (talk) 09:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Source and citation[edit]

The third paragraph in the opening section contains several statements concerning Vietnamese genetics supported by two separate sources. The first source is hosted by the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI), which is a perfectly acceptable source for this type of study. However, the user who added this information probably did not reflect the whole study, the user also changed (deliberately?) and perhaps manipulated the content a bit; in the NCBI research, it states [3]:

The comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals. However, the Vietnamese population can be differentiated by the significantly higher frequency of the enzyme morph HincII-5 and by seven new markers. These results strongly support the hypothesis of a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from the Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations based on HLA markers and linguistic evidence.

However, the information on this Wikipedia article which cited this reference is written as:

Genetic studies in the past decade have shown that the Vietnamese population exhibits genetic markers that are closely related and/or identical to those of Southern Chinese populations, with the exception of seven unique markers. These results, along with remnants of Thai enzyme morphs, indicate a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai populations.

In order to reflect the complexity of human genetics, we need to approach the information in a scentific perspective, rather than making it seem like ethnic-oriented (i.e. stating Vietnamese are closer to which ethnic group rather than...).

However, the second source (a map) [4], unlike the first source which is hosted by a reputed research center that specializes on fields such as molecular biology, microbiology and biochemistry, is of unknown orgin and is hosted by the website called "wufi.org", which is a political organization titled "World United Formosans For Independence" (WUFI). I'm afraid it automatically advertizes a politically-oriented sentiment in its contents. Evenmore so, this reference was only a graph depicting genetic clusters, it did not denote such statements as it was written on this article. So by puting forth statements simply based on personal observation of the graph is not acceptable.--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 06:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

For those interested, here is where the graph originally came from.[5]. David873 (talk) 03:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

On Page 421 of the article, the author asserts that when he/she refers to Orientals, he/she is predominantly talking about Chinese populations. The word Southern was added because the cross-referenced studies (Blanc et al ., 1983 and Johnson et al ., 1983) took samples predominantly from the Canton province. The author makes the conclusion that the genetic markers are closely related and/or identical in Table 4 of the same page. If you read his discussion, he talks about all of the related genetic markers, and then concludes that with this (in the very last sentence), that the Vietnamese population came from Chinese/Thai populations.

The article can be accessed on the same page with a subscription to the service or with access through a higher education system (Students, Faculty, Post-Doctorate Researchers of most mid to upper-tier Universities). Linerqi (talk) 01:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

A proper source has also been added for the second claim. The paper clearly states the genetic cluster on page 194 (once again, you will need either a subscription or be affiliated with a high quality University/Research Center to see the paper). Linerqi (talk) 01:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Why did the user remove (or conceal) part of the statement that was cited using the first source from NCBI? I find it to be extremely puzzling.
It should also be clarified that the cited sources (and the new one), though both hosted by NCBI ("1" and "2"), are articles published by two different hospitals (one in France, one in Taiwan). They are not original contents by NCBI, but articles simply hosted by this link. The second article ("2") in particular is the same article that was hosted by the political site WUFI.org ([6]), as they are both the exact same article by M. Lin and various authors of the Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taiwan.--DerechoReguerraz (talk) 06:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

About the languages spoken[edit]

Why are Cantonese and Teo Chew not listed? Many ethnic Vietnamese around the world are fluent in speaking at least one of these languages in addition to Vietnamese. David873 (talk) 03:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, there ought to be a brief mention of the Hoa people as they are really ethnically Vietnamese and there are no real differences between 'native' Vietnamese and Hoa people. After all, the Cantonese people are closely related to the Vietnamese people in a genetic, ethnic and cultural sense, a closeness that can only be intensified by the very high rate of 'intermarriage' between the 'Hoa' people and 'native' Vietnamese. Please do not say that Hoa people are ethnically Chinese; this is just a political trick designed to promote hatred based on non-existent ethnic differences.

no you are not related to cantonese people at all, cantonese YDNA is closely related to northen han while MTDNA is related Zhuang instead of vietnamese vietnamese are related to khmer people


David873 (talk) 04:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Please cite a credible source that claims that Hoa people are ethnically Vietnamese. The view that they are ethically different is at least supported by a government. You claim that the other side is using political tricks to stir hatred - at least back up your claim. DHN (talk) 07:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The fact that there is a very high rate of intermarriage between "Hoa" people and non-Hoa ethnic Vietnamese and that even Cantonese people living in Canton are closely related to ethnic Vietnamese ought to say something about the relations between the Hoa people and (other?) ethnic Vietnamese; after all, the Vietnamese ethnic identity is really a multicultural one! Many ancient ancestors of modern ethnic Vietnamese did in fact come from modern-day southern China (which of course was not part of China in ancient times), which is also the homeland of modern-day Cantonese people. I think that it is already widely accepted that many people who consider themselves to be ethnic Vietnamese only would be considered "Hoa" by the Vietnamese government simply on the basis of their recent ancestry (i.e. their lineage tracing back to no more than a few hundred years). As for the claims that there is some kind of political trick going on, that was because I noticed that CCP propaganda has been cropping up across a number of Wikipedia pages relating to the Hoa ethnicity. The fact that the CCP's reporting on the supposed persecution of Hoa people has not been backed up by a reliable source speaks for itself (i.e. passes WP:DUCK) given that most of Mainland China's populace certainly do not (repeat not) regard Hoa poeple as ethnically Chinese!
Also, it is true that people can call themselves whatever they want in a census. However, this alone will not change the fact that Hoa people are seen as ethnic Vietnamese and not ethnic Chinese by the wider community (and that is true in not only the US, but just about everywhere in the developed world). David873 (talk) 09:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Show us your references, that's all we need. RBD (talk) 15:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps I should make it plain. The simple fact is this article does not reflect a world wide view of what constitutes "Vietnamese people". This article seems to be about the Kinh ethnic group only as designated by the Vietnamese government. I am seriously considering a rename of this article to "Kinh people" in order to remove any confusion. Of course, an article explaining the various meanings of "Vietnamese people" will then be needed. Stand by for the renaming debate. David873 (talk) 00:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Please provide citation that anyone else in the world besides you call anyone else besides the Kinh "ethnic Vietnamese". DHN (talk)
No, I was talking about "Vietnamese people" not "ethnic Vietnamese". "Vietnamese people" does not even have to refer to the Vietnamese ethnicity. For example, it could also refer to Vietnamese citizens. I don't think we need a source to realise this; otherwise, we will bogged down in endless and pointless debate. The scope definitely needs to be widened. If you check out Arab, you will see what I mean (notice that different definitions for "Arab" as given in the later article). David873 (talk) 01:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Just removed from article[edit]

"The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River Delta and mixed with the indigenous population.{{Fact|date=August 2007}}<!--When did this happen? Need much more detail about this.-->" Badagnani (talk) 20:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This theory has been denounced. The ancient Vietnamese(red river delta) stood at the end of the Ch'in and Han expansion They were there long before the arrival of the Chinese.Sea888 (talk) 01:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________

That's the reason of this "disputation" that led me to put some words on the "earlier Vietnamese groups" now repelled to the highland.

Takima (talk) 15:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

vietnamese have chinese DNA[edit]

Vietnamese people have more chinese DNA than their own!

look at this

According to a research study done by the Hopital Saint-Louis in Paris, France: "the comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals," with the exception of seven unique markers. These results, along with remnants of Thai enzyme morphs, indicate a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations[1]. According to another research by the Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei, Taiwan, the Vietnamese people are classified in the same genetic cluster as the Miao, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyi and Thai, with a divergent family consisting of Singaporean and Thai Chinese, Minnan (Hoklo) and Hakka.[2] ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 21:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

This is already addressed and discussed (albeit briefly) in the article. Or may be this needs to be expanded. After all, a lot of stories about the Vietnamese people turn out to be nothing but blatant myths that have nothing to do with what really happened. Unfortunately, the truth often hurts... 122.105.150.242 (talk) 06:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually Chinese have Vietnamese DNA and one study does not make the whole. In China, there are studies with Han, Cantonese, Zhuong having been sinicized. Viets are proven to be biologically close to the Tai and Muong and linguistically related to the Mon khmer. That is why Guangxi is an autonomous region in China. So is Tibet. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.156.52.244 (talk • contribs)
These are good points, but you should sign your posts by adding four tildes after your post. Badagnani (talk) 19:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Chinese have "Vietnamese" DNA? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow. References, please.

As for certain theories being "denounced" - interesting choice of word, that - it doesn't make that theory wrong. Plenty of groups may have immigrated to the Red River Delta from "China" - whether southern China (i.e. non-Han) or northern (i.e. Han or proto-Han or Han-esque) - long before the Qin or Han or whatever state reached there. I think this is the issue, not how much "Chinese" blood entered Vietnam after the Chinese conquest.

As someone mentioned, the truth often hurts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 (talk) 10:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

If by saying Chinese have vietnamese DNA means that the majority or maybe even all Chinese peoples have vietnamese DNA, then it is blatantly untrue. Of course there are some Chinese people who share some of their DNA with some vietnamese people. However the reverse statement that vietnamese have Chinese DNA is actually true. That is vast number of vietnamese people have DNA that originated from people in China. Also chronologically in history, the Chinese peoples established their states a long time before there was any mention of vietnam or vietnamese. Vietnamese people are an off-shoot of the Chinese, not the other way round, and for that they should be grateful instead of the usual vietnamese feeling of jealousy and competition. Similarly it is meaningless to talk of the English people or England prior to the 4th century AD/CE, as there was no people called the English prior to that time, nor a place of that name. So to recap, vietnamese people came along a long time after the Chinese people were established in history, and the vietnamese were an off-shoot of the Chinese. 217.42.59.59 (talk) 02:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

no you have nothing to do with any sub han groups, that is only based on blood types according to ydna and mtdna you are more closely related to khmer and lao people all southenr han groups are closely related to northen han i wonder why all the vietnamese are so desperate to link chinese... —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX (talkcontribs) 12:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Earlier Vietnamese groups[edit]

I've added this chapter in recognition of the "first nations" of what is today Vietnam. The distinction is on dry and wet rice agriculture.Next chapter can be influences from the South with the Champa kingdom and from the North with China.

Takima (talk) 21:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


It should perhaps be pointed out that the 'first nations' of what is today vietnam, and the present day vietnamese are not related genetically. 217.42.59.59 (talk) 02:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Archeology and prehistoric mythology[edit]

In response to these discussions, I have added the "earlier Vietnamese groups" followed by influences from the south with the Champa and from the north with China after 6 months in Vietnam, mainly on the Mekong delta ("Cuu Long") for a field work on politology and anthroplogy of the islamicCham Bani and buddhist Khmer Krom. I've just spent 1 month around Lai Chau-Dien Bien.

Takima (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Archaeological evidence of the bronze age Dong Son Culture, also known as Lac Society, suggest the ancient Vietnamese people were among the first to practice agriculture."

The Đông Sơn Culture, depending on the Wikipedia source stretching from 1,000 BC to 3079 BC until 258 BC or so, makes "the ancient Vietnamese people one of the first to practise agriculture"? I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 (talk) 10:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Where's the evidence that the Lacs were related to today's vietnamese? Given the number of wars, destructions, ethnic-cleansings and migrations into what is today's vietnam, it is extremely unlikely that today's vietnamese can claim they are direct descendants of the Lacs. 217.42.59.59 (talk) 02:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
"extremely unlikely" is a harsh word. Vietnamese today may not be "pure Lac people" as they were heavily mixed with Chinese, Cham, Khmer and other ethnics on the high land throughout the past 2000 years, but perhaps the Lac were their original ancestors as today Vietnamese still have temples and annual festivals, celebrations to honor the Lac people. You don't find any other ethnic group in China or Vietnam that do the same thing. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 23:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't suppose you should nitpick the legend as it is just a legend after all, and a legend definitely contains fictional or mystical elements. This legend of Âu Cơ and Lạc Long Quân simply signifies the unification of the sea people (Lạc Long Quân) and the mountain people (Âu Cơ) to create the Vietnamese race. Sunnyrain90 (talk) 23:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Images[edit]

A full six images in the infobox of historical figures (83 percent of whom are male) isn't balanced. As with any ethnic group article, notable living people of various professions should also be included. Can this please be corrected? Badagnani (talk) 06:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There are now two females. I've put in a person active from 1950-2000. 16% for the last 50 years seems appropriate actually. Most othere ones seem to have almost all 20th century people. Phan Boi Chau is the 1900-1950 era representative. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 07:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, these are still all historical figures. There should be at least one or two active, living people who are doing something productive at the present time. Badagnani (talk) 09:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

What happened to all the females? Where has the girl in ao dai gone? Why are these all in black and white? And a drawing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.53.198 (talk) 06:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't remove the ao dai pic, but as we don't know who she is, she could be a non-Kinh person, it's just some person's home photo, it's best to leave it out I think. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 00:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:GenNgoQuangTruong.JPG[edit]

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --21:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The first Vietnamese[edit]

From 2.1 to 2.4, I have put "the earlier Vietnamese groups" and ended the full subjet with "the first Vietnamese". All these come from my own published works in French as well as the ones by Paul Mus and Bernard B. Fall with references from EFEO (École Française d'Extrême Orient) scholars.

Takima (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It would appear that the term 'the first vietnamese group' pre-dates the term vietnam or vietnamese. Indeed 'the first vietnamese group' were in all likelihood not the direct ancestors of the vietnamese of today. 217.42.59.59 (talk) 02:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

______________________________________

Vietnamese People on "youtube" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqxiIvejroA&feature=related

Takima (talk) 15:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

References or sources.[edit]

From 2-1 to 2-4, the sources are notes from 6 to 11. Please refere yourself to the notes, showing the referential sources.

Takima (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Vietnamese history and population. A system Approach[edit]

http://www.erudit.org/revue/ei/1987/v18/n3/702210ar.pdf

1987 paper in French Relations Internationales" on "The colonizations of Vietnam and Vietnamese colonialism".

As in most countries, the first inhabitants were pushed by newcomers in remote bad lands for the USA and Australia or highlands for Vietnam.

In Vietnam, the first inhabitants came from the south Austrasia by the Sunda Shelf. Then from the North came the Cantonese Yue settling on the Red River delta. As time goes by they turned to be different from their cousin in Guangdong and make their own new contry different from the one they came and they name it "Nanyue" Vietnamized in Nam Viet. Further south flourished indianized Khmer Kingdom and Champa kingdom.

The next step was the "drive to the south" (Nam Tien) not different from the germanic "Drang nach Osten", colonizing the Champa and then the khmer, vietnamizing the Mekong delta, with the help of Chinese immigrants and refugees. http://paristimes.net/fr_culture/immigr-chinoise-ntheanh.html "Immgration chinoise et la colonisation du delta du Mékong".

Takima (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The current transcription Vietnamese[edit]

The current transcription of Vietnamese , using Latin alphabet, was not the work by the French. According to most scholars, including French scholars like Pierre Huard and Maurice Durand, members of the French School of the Far East, indicate that "la romanisation du vietnamien" was an international and collective work. The work was wrongly attributed to Alexandre de Rhodes who published his "anamite-latin-portugais" dictionary in 1651. Later, Pigneau de Behaine and then Taberd continued this undertaking to achieve the current transcription of Vietnamese. T.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.34.255 (talk) 21:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

This is covered in Vietnamese alphabet#History. DHN (talk) 05:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)


Pending changes[edit]

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Oversea Vietnameses[edit]

Could someone update the number of Oversea Vietnameses in each country. There are more than 600,000 Vietnamese in Cambodia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pringels000 (talkcontribs) 15:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You need a more reliable source than an advocacy website. DHN (talk) 01:07, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

"Southern Chinese or other people in South China"[edit]

why "Southern Chinese or other people in South China" in infobox related people? proof? where reference say vietnam people relate to south chinese? where source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhan Tuo (talkcontribs) 03:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

"A 2001 HLA study headed by laboratories at the Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei (Taiwan) classifies the Vietnamese people in the same genetic cluster as the Miao (Hmong), Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyei and Thai, with a divergent family consisting of Thai Chinese and Singapore Chinese, Minnan (Hoklo) and Hakka.[2]" Quigley (talk) 04:46, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
  1. ^ Ivanova R, Astrinidis A, Lepage V, et al (Dec 1999). "Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in the Vietnamese population". Eur. J. Immunogenet. 26 (6): 417–22. PMID 10583463. 
  2. ^ a b Lin M, Chu CC, Chang SL, et al (Mar 2001). "The origin of Minnan and Hakka, the so-called "Taiwanese", inferred by HLA study". Tissue Antigens 57 (3): 192–9. PMID 11285126. 

New Title? ("Viet people" with added redirect for current title?)[edit]

I'd like to suggest—since this article is about an ethnic group rather than a nationality proper (i.e., the people of the nation-state of Vietnam), and as such does not include all the populations native to the country of Vietnam who may in this latter sense rightfully be called "Vietnamese" (nor does it include only those populations, but even populations that have always lived outside its borders...), and since apparently the name "Vietnam" itself strongly suggests an emphasis on the south Viet people only—that its title be changed to the arguably more precise Viet people, retaining all the current redirects plus of course an added redirect for those who may still search on Vietnamese people. Regarding the latter proposed new redirect, a search on "Vietnamese people" might alternatively direct to a disambiguation page referring on the one hand to the several native ethnic groups of the nation of Vietnam (perhaps linked to Vietnam#Ethnicity?), and on the other hand, to the present article, renamed Viet people, about this particular ethnic group, which even in bygone eras has transcended the borders of Vietnam. How do people feel about this? Would someone like to take on the task? I strongly suggest it, in the interest of preciseness only. (Please Note, I have no personal vested interest in the issue; I merely noticed the ambiguity of the title as it is now, and decided on that basis alone to raise this proposal.) IfYouDoIfYouDon't (talk) 00:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Can you find reliable sources that use this term? DHN (talk) 17:09, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Creation of the "Kinh" ethnicity[edit]

The Le dynasty created the Kinh ethnicity in the 15th century

http://books.google.com/books?id=ktazW5kWYy0C&pg=PA298&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2j6GNiMMc1oC&pg=PA474&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=JG619Tq4ElkC&pg=PA127&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=AkIhYEavBrEC&pg=PA139&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=a2TerRF1j74C&pg=PA185&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=oiLYu2-uc8IC&pg=PT429&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

Le historians like Ngô Sĩ Liên were commisioned by the dynasty to create creation myths for their ethnic group, so Ngo claimed that the Kinh were descended from Emperor Shennong

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc30ytJmwzMC&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q&f=false

18:51, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Han as a name for Vietnamese people[edit]

Nguyen Emperor Minh Mang claimed that the Vietnamese had the right to call themselves Han people 漢人.

http://books.google.com/books?id=py5Xh0-pw18C&pg=PA115&dq=minh+mang+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cOZSUqPkLcbgyQHVzYD4AQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=minh%20mang%20han&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=q5C3Sbe1iMoC&pg=PA209&dq=minh+mang+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cOZSUqPkLcbgyQHVzYD4AQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=minh%20mang%20han&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2j6GNiMMc1oC&pg=PA474&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue4/article_353.html

Minh Mang called Vietnam "Zhongguo" 中國

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-asia&month=9906&week=e&msg=28mq4qDZEWt3sD%2B6t6h/lw&user=&pw=

Sinocentrism#Vietnam

04:14, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Just because Minh Mang was our former king, it doesn't mean that he represents the views of all, (or even a significant minority in this issue), Vietnamese people. If Minh Mang was some closeted Sinophile, that's his problem and this whole Vietnamese is Han thing needs to go on his own article. Vietnamese, have been and currently are and in the foreseeable future, are anti-China stemming from China's historical colonization of VN for over a millennium, and political, military, economic, cultural hegemony since nearly the beginning of Vietnamese history. Nguyễn Quốc Việt (talk) 04:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Infobox Vietnamese Notable People[edit]

Someone has kept changing around the infobox of notable Vietnamese people in the last few months. It is now, quite frankly, literally unrecognizable from before. Many people I do not recognize to be notable. And, there is now only one Vietnamese female here, down from 3 before! Frankly, I find that last part to be shameful.

I'm not sure what's the reason with this. It was fine the way it was before, until someone chose to delete the picture for it... I propose changing the list back to what it was here before: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vietnamese_people&oldid=564325184

Top: Triệu Thị Trinh • Nam Phương • Trưng Sisters

Middle: Phan Bội Châu • Lê Lợi • Nguyen Dinh Chieu

Bottom: Lê Văn DuyệtHo Chi Minh • Ngô Bảo Châu

Or, at the very least, to expand this list. Maybe we can add back in Triệu Thị Trinh and the Trưng Sisters, and also include Hồ Xuân Hương as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.208.179.66 (talk) 16:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2014[edit]

I would like an edit for the 'Vietnamese people' page. The notable people represented at the the top right of the page are all men. I request you to add a or some female notable such as Hai Ba Trung or Ba Trieu. It's a unfair mistake to let people from other countries think that Vietnamese women are not well-regarded compared to men. Thanks. Maido97 (talk) 08:55, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done - It is NOT that I disagree with you, but we have no pictures of Bà Triệu, and the picture on the Trưng Sisters page is horizontal and very unclear. I tried adding the Trung sisters picture into the 3x3 array, but it looks silly, you can see my test here. If you can find some suitable pictures on Wikipedia, or Wikipedia Commons, please re-suggest this, and link to the pictures. - Arjayay (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2014 (UTC)