Talk:Livermush

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I've lived in many 'Southern States' (TN, AL, GA, TX, KY) and I think it is overly broad to refer to Livermush as a 'Southern United States foodstuff', it is a very local regional food eaten only in Western North Carolina, in my experience. Compare to Grits which are consumed in alll of the 'Southern United States.' for comparison. There are similar meats made from less choice cuts of pork in other places in the South (Souse, Scrapple, Head Cheese) but I never encountered Liver Mush until I moved to Hickory, NC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwareagle (talk • contribs) 22:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Then your experience is too limited. I grew up in North Carolina, and I have lived throughout the United States, including various parts of eastern, central, and western North Carolina. Livermush and liver pudding (note that the article contains that term also) can be found throughout North Carolina as well as other southern states. To say that it is a "very local food eaten only in Western North Carolina" is more inaccurate than "Southern United States foodstuff". At this particular moment I am in eastern NC, about an hour from the coast. I could go to my local supermarket and have liver pudding in my home within minutes. I could drive about two hours west and buy liver mush. To put it bluntly, you are simply wrong. Ward3001 (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Follow up in response to your geographic changes: I've seen livermush and/or liver pudding in stores in SC, VA, TN, and GA. Those are just the states that I have bothered to notice. The products may be in other states also. This is not a food restricted to North Carolina, although it may be more predominant in NC and areas immediately surrounding NC. We don't have to demonstrate that the food is available in every southern state (although it may be) to label it a southern dish. Grits, by the way, are not restricted to the southern USA. I've eaten grits as far north as Chicago and as far west as New Mexico. Grits may have gained fame in the south, but now they're everywhere. Ward3001 (talk) 01:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Naturally southern cusine has traversed the country with southerners, but livermush is not a food that most southerners would recognize as a traditional 'foodstuff.' Livermush is predominately consumed in North Carolina. This is not an attempt to disparage livermush, but it is no different than Cincinnati chili [1]. Cincinnati chili is not described as a 'Midwestern United States foodstuff.' It is recognized as a being primarily consumed in a smaller geographic area, livermush is no different. --Wwareagle (talk) 06:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I never thought it was an attempt to disparage livermush. I personally don't like livermush (even though I ate it frequently as a child), so I'm not trying to defend its prestige. This is simply a matter of accuracy, and it is inaccurate to describe it as predominantly consumed in North Carolina. I've seen far too much evidence otherwise. The "Cincinnati chili" example does not apply, by the way, as livermush is not known as "North Carolina livermush". I think you're basing your opinions on life experience that is too narrow (that's not to imply that you personally are narrow). You earlier stated that you never encountered livermush until you moved to Hickory, NC; that doesn't mean it wasn't there in other places; that's just the first place you noticed it. I never noticed kiełbaska sausage in stores until someone served it to me, but that doesn't mean it wasn't in the stores. I never ate Chinese food until I was in my teens, but that doesn't mean it's restricted to the region where I first ate it. Even if livermush can't be found frequently in a few southern states doesn't make the descriptor "predominantly consumed in North Carolina" accurate. I have purposefully looked for it out of curiousity in other states and had no difficulty finding it. I have no problem with genuine regional differences, whether for food or other matters. There are some regional foods, words, and customs that I would not challenge because I have never experienced them outside of the specific region. But livermush is not one of those narrow regional foods. Ward3001 (talk) 15:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
The way it is portrayed on this page, a non-native would be left with the impression that livermush is a traditional food recognized by the majority of southerners, similar to grits, collard greens, chittlins…etc. Just because I can find Kielbasa in grocery stores across the south, it does not follow that Kielbasa is a 'Southern United States Foodstuff.' If the only criteria is that you can find a food somewhere in a southern state, what isn't a 'Southern United States foodstuff?'
Just like Low Country Cuisne [2] is specific to a sub-region of the South, livermush is specific to North Carolina. If it is inaccurate to describe it as as 'predominantly consumed in North Carolina,' I'd like to see facts that substantiate that livermush is considered a traditonal food in other places in the South. The only External Link on the page reinforces that livermush is a North Carolina food. [3] --Wwareagle (talk) 22:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Let's see "the facts that substantiate" that livermush is predominantly consumed in North Carolina. This is a difference of opinion based on life experiences. Note also that I was not the original editor who described livermush as a southern dish. Thus far, we have at least two editors who consider it a southern dish, and one who considers it predominantly consumed in North Carolina. I can accept that it might not be widely consumed in some southern states if someone provided compelling evidence. But I do not accept that it is predominantly a NC dish because I personally have seen too much evidence to the contrary. And I never said that Kielbasa is a 'Southern United States Foodstuff.' I simply said that if I first ate it in North Carolina, and first saw it in grocery stores in North Carolina, that doesn't make it a North Carolina dish simply because my life experience did not lead me to notice it in other places. Similarly, your life experiences did not lead you to notice livermush until you were in North Carolina; that doesn't mean it was not found (and eaten more than a little) in other states. In how many states besides NC have you purposefully looked for livermush in stores? I have purposefully looked for it in at least five southern states including NC, and had absolutely no difficulty finding it. It was as plentiful in the stores of other states as it was in NC. It is not a "predominantly North Carolina" food.
Want a web link for livermush outside NC. Try this one that describes it as a Southern delicacy. Here is a livermush recipe from a website located in Connecticut. I'm sure I could easily find more, especially using both "livermush" and "liver pudding". Just because no one bothered to overlink the article (against policy) doesn't mean livermush is confined mainly to NC. Ward3001 (talk) 22:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't doubt you can find recipes/references to livermush that don't mention North Carolina. Possibly I'm misunderstanding the standards on wikipedia to state something as a fact. I'm used to assuming lack of evidence means something is not a fact. Is the wikipedia standard that lack of evidence means something is fact? My life experience of 44 years living in the South, along with the information I can find on the Internet, lead me to say livermush is a food predominantly consumed in North Carolina. Is it required that I prove, with no evidence contradicting me, that it is not a 'traditional food' in all of the other regions of the south?
I approached this as a topic I had a specific knowledge of based on my life experience. I started by trying to explain my perspective on the discussion page as opposed to just making changes to the page without any consideration. If my assertion (livermush is not recognized as a traditional food by the majority of Southerners, and should be labeled as a North Carolina food instead) was proved wrong, I'd concede. I have yet to see anything that contradicts my life experience that livermush is a food primarily consumed in a small geographic area (North Carolina) and not a traditional 'Southern United States foodstuff.' The linked article and even the comments on this discussion page, only mention North Carolina. I think some feel that by stating that most Southerners didn't grow up eating livermush, I'm insulting the people who did. There is nothing wrong with livermush being a food specific to some region smaller than all of the South. People who grew up eating shrimp and grits don't feel offended because shrimp and grits is not part of the broader southern cuisine. My concern is that someone would read this page and believe, mistakenly, that the majority of Southerners consider livermush a traditional food.
If I've breached some etiquette, I apologize, I am just trying to make the information in the article better. --Wwareagle (talk) 01:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
You certainly haven't breached any standard of etiquette or any policy. I have never assumed bad faith on your part. I simply strongly disagree with you. In this particular case, there is no standard of proof that I know of because we are talking about a matter of opinion based on life experiences. The conclusions from my experiences contradict the conclusions from your experiences. There is also the complexity that exists because how do you define how predominantly livermush is eaten in various locations? The only way would be statistics from livermush producers, and even that could be disputed as a matter of opinion. On Wikipedia when we reach such impasses of evidence, the final determination is done by consensus. That relates to my point that at least two editors have described livermush as a southern dish, and one editor has described it as predominantly eaten in North Carolina. Given that this is an article that isn't read by many people, that may be the only opinions we get in a long while, if we ever get any more. But as it stands right now, the weight of opinions is to describe it as a southern dish. That is not a criticism of you or your motives; it's just the way things work on Wikipedia. If you produced clear, reliable evidence (see WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:CITE) beyond your life experiences that contradict the "southern dish" idea, that would need to be considered. If I then produced similar evidence to the contrary, we would be back to the consensus process. If this were an encylopedia like Britannica or Encarta, there would be researchers and editors who would make the final decision. On Wikipedia, decisions are made by consensus. One point that you might consider: If you could find a reliable source that livermush and liver pudding originated in North Carolina, I would not object to making that statement, but still describing it as a southern dish. I'm not optimistic that there is inconvertile evidence of that. The only thing I've read about how it originated is that some form of the food was brought down the Appalachian Mountains from regions north of Virginia; but I have no idea where I read it, how reliable the source might be, or whether there are contradictory explanations. Ward3001 (talk) 01:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

There is a stub article out there titled liver pudding. I think that that article should be merged with a redirect to this one.

I am a western NC native. I grew up on livermush and still eat it today. Sometimes I eat it with breakfast on toast or a biscuit or as a side with eggs, but I also eat it for dinner with macaroni. And, we don't fry ours, we slice it and bake it in the oven on a cookie-sheet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.105.74.194 (talk) 05:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I grew up calling it Liver Pudding, but I think that Liver Mush is the more common usage, so this one should be the main name for it.--'''WAHooker''' 02:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge Liver Pudding into Livermush. I've lived in areas where each term was primarily used, but Livermush is more predominant. But some people who use one term have never heard of the other term, so a redirect is important. I also think it's important to add in the merged article that Livermush is primarily used in areas closer to the Appalachians, whereas Liver Pudding is more widely heard nearer coastal areas. Ward3001 23:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge Liver Pudding into Livermush, however make the distinction in the combined article that liver pudding is a slight variation on liver mush. Neese's sells both and they are often side by side in the grocery store. From eating both, I'd say that liver mush is slightly drier. I've never seen either sold outside the Carolinas. The true breakfast of champions, best served with 2 fried eggs + fried tomatoes (Joel's Kitchen in Hickory). --A. B. 05:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Liver pudding and Livermush are two different things. Do NOT merge. Liver pudding consists of lean pork, spices, and liver. Livermush has various other scraps, such as head, snout, tail, etc.

liver pudding is a different combination and has an entirely different taste then livermush the two should not be considered the same.

Poor idea to merge two completely different products.

I'm a Western NC native, and grew up eating livermush. When I moved to Raleigh, NC, i saw Liver Pudding on store shelves, but not livermush. I found the liver pudding to have a less coarse consistancy, and to be more bland. Livermush is closer in taste/texture to Scrapple (which i discovered when i moved to Washington, DC) than Liver Pudding.

Please un-Merge livermush and liver pudding. Livermush and liver pudding are two similar, but completely different, products. Livermush has a drier, and much grainier texture. I am from Western NC and livermush is the only type of product you find there. My great grandmother would make it from scratch. In the Eastern part of NC, you find liver pudding, but rarely livermush. Merging these two into one article is akin to merging lo mein and spaghetti, or bacon and ham into one article.

Agreed, livermush and liver pudding are extremely different foods and only people not actually from NC would ever conflate the two. Western North Carolinians rarely, if ever, eat liver pudding, but grocery stores all over the area sell at least 3 different varieties of livermush, not to mention the more homemade varieties sold at local places. My favorite was at Wells Jenkins and Wells Meat in Forest City, NC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mweens (talk • contribs) 11:09, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Liver pudding redirects here per above discussion. Don't change without consensus. Ward3001 (talk) 16:04, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree with Mweens, Liver Pudding is a different foodstuff. If nothing else, it should have a subsection in this article citing the differences. I do not yet have the evidence to note the differences, beyond my taste bud memories. Will research further and report back here before editing article. Chruck (talk) 16:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)